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"Humans themselves have evolved - in ten thousand years humans have gone
from hunting to farming to cities to cyberspace. thats evidence enough"
That's not the kind of evolution that's being debated. We're talking about
one kind of animal evolving into another kind of animal.
"for 4billion years the earth has existed but only for 6thousand has any
species believed in a "god""
I've seen evolution dates that say the Earth is anywhere from 14 to 22
billion years old, but if you want to talk about how long a certain faith
has existed, the belief in evolution has only been around for about 200
years.
"the fact is religion is not an expination - its an excuse"
An excuse for what? I would say many people believe in evolution as an excuse to
not believe in God.
At 3:07:00 PM on 5/1/2001, Mattman said:
Sputnik apparently believes that his laughter "hahahahahahaha" is proof enough of his careless statements, and that he need not back them up further. If only arguments were so simple. Evolutiosaurus, your comments were very intelligent.
At 11:27:12 AM on 5/1/2001, Hans said:
you americans.............
At 5:21:18 PM on 4/29/2001, Overaptor said:
uh, thanx
At 10:26:52 AM on 4/29/2001, SuperJonk said:
Hey guys! Hows it goin? I've finally registered on this awesome site. Ive been coming here for like a year or something? Anyhoo -- I've been watching all of your funny debates and comments for a few months now (gosh that makes me feel like a dirty old man). I'm Christian - -but I am defenintly open to any kind of discussion. Mattman -- hows it goin? Like 1/4 of the way down you said that all religion is hanging on is Faith itself. I couldnt have put it in better words myself!!! :) I mean -- thats a good thing. Consider everything Jesus did -- all the signs he did. People kept asking for signs from him like to throw fire odwn from heaven or blow up a cow or whatever -- but Jesus got ticked at them - -cuz why didnt they jsut freakin beleive what He said??? If they wanted to beleive him -- why couldnt they jsut take his word for it????
Christianity is all about Faith -- I challenge you to jsut openly ask God, "Hey -- whats the deal? Make yourself known and prove yourself!" Just speak openly -- He'll listen and eventually return your request. ;) Take care, and may God plave you all on an island full of scary monsters ready to eat you, in a place called Jurassic Blessings (err God bless yaz!)
At 11:25:51 PM on 4/28/2001, evolutiosaurous said:
hey sputnik evolution isnt theory its fackt and its happining right infront of ur eyes. Humans themselves have evolved - in ten thousand years humans have gone from hunting to farming to cities to cyberspace. thats evidence enough. and as for our mind - it doesnt exist. it is behavior not intellect. from when our earliest ancestors (monkeys) started using tools (like the way chimps use twigs to fish out ternmites) our behavioral development spiraled. more complex tool prevoke more complex brains which prevoke more complex tools. but if were gunna all be ignorant i might as well put in my 2cents. for 4billion years the earth has existed but only for 6thousand has any species believed in a "god". the egyptions believed that the sun was a god they called Ra. we now know its a ball 'o' burnin gas. now we dont know where we come from or where we go when we die. in 6thousand more years we probably will know, but we'll have a new and equilly false religion. and they'll look back at us and say "hahaha they thought that we started from adam and eve haha wut a bunch of idiots." the fact is religion is not an expination - its an excuse
At 10:11:33 PM on 4/27/2001, Darth Rancor said:
Then cite some of that evidence. Prove us all wrong.
"As for feathered dinosaurs.......hahahahahahaha"
Have you had your eyes checked lately?
The Good. The Bad. The One and Only Rancor.
<a href= http://www.angelfire.com/art/gondolend/>Gondolend</a>
<a href= http://www.angelfire.com/art/fds/>Feathered Dinosaur Society</a>
At 10:07:55 PM on 4/27/2001, SputnikM80s said:
Evolution is a lie.A stupid THEORY with no reason or logic.Dont be fooled by it.The evidence against it is huge.As for feathered dinosaurs.......hahahahahahaha
At 8:21:00 PM on 4/27/2001, Rob_Redwing said:
Note to all: I have responded to the last posts I saw here on the message board. It's entitled "Evolution and Electrons." I too am enjoying this discussion.
Peace,
Rob
At 8:13:35 PM on 4/27/2001, Mattman said:
"Why do we have a mind? It doesn't make us better beings or more adapted to our environment. Our sentiment make us even more vulnerable."
I agree and disagree. One one hand, our advanced minds can make us vulnerable (like if we destroy ourselves with technology). However, no one said Evolution is perfect. 99.9 percent of all species have gone extinct. Species go extinct every day in fact. Now, on the other hand, our minds are becoming so advanced that when our planet is finally dying out, we may be able to travel and colonize another planet. Amazing idea, and that would certainly mean our minds are necessary. Often, evolution is a nasty, trial and error process. It isn't always pretty.
At 8:10:47 PM on 4/27/2001, Darknodin said:
Yeah! I'm enjoying it too!
At 8:10:14 PM on 4/27/2001, Darknodin said:
no... we haven't proven that atoms exist... we have proven that something does have somekind of effect on something else and we imagine that this something are atoms... have you studied physics at school? cuz then you'd know that the "atom" is only a model.
about the IBM thing I don't know... but there are other things like Photons and Quarks and smaller elements that we can't say but that we acknowledge their existence... And also... we can see the effects of God... and as I said they are more subtle...
At 8:08:37 PM on 4/27/2001, Mattman said:
Darknodin,
not taking anything personally. Enjoying the discussion. I hope you are as well. It's nice when you can have this kind of discussion without things becoming heated. : )
At 8:06:55 PM on 4/27/2001, Mattman said:
Also, if atoms do not exist and are not a proven fact, how do you explain an atom bomb? The atom bomb is designed based on an atom. If atoms are not what we think they are, the atom bomb would never have worked. It involves the splitting of an atom! The aftermath of the atom bomb is plain as day. THAT'S evidence.
At 8:06:16 PM on 4/27/2001, Darknodin said:
a proof of why our mind cannot exist... ok...
Why do we have a mind? It doesn't make us better beings or more adapted to our environment. Our sentiment make us even more vulnerable. Normally we could without any remorse go an kill someone to take his food to survive. Monogamy makes us unable to reproduce as fast as we could. A 9 year old child having a kid is seen as a bad thing... Why? It perpetuates the race and is making us evolve. Raping is seen as bad? Why? People say it's because it give psychological trauma and it's taking advantage of someone and so on... but it shouldn't be! It should be something that we should acclaim because it perpetuates survival and if someone dies in the process? well it's more food for everybody else. Interspecies breeding is bad (a man or women who has intercourse with a monkey could eventually led to a birth) but this would make us evolve faster... Why do we have a mind? Why do we have sentiments while we could be perfect survivors? the mind is useless... and completely detached from evolution... that's why that if there is no God, there is no mind.
At 8:05:23 PM on 4/27/2001, Sinorsis said:
good idea.
At 8:04:54 PM on 4/27/2001, Mattman said:
Darknodin:
http://www.aip.org/history/electron/
Through extensive tests you can (and we have) prove that atoms and electrons exist. Machines can detect their presence, even though you cannot see them. Can you do this with God? How conveniant your argument that you cannot describe the 'feeling' of God or how you 'know' he exists because of your 'faith.' It is not my job to prove to you facts which have already been proven by men far smarter than you or I, but rather yours to provide me with some evidence of God other than a 'feeling'.
At 7:59:32 PM on 4/27/2001, Rob_Redwing said:
>even the best Electronic Microscope now can't give us an image of an atom.<
Actually, I believe that IBM wrote "IBM" in atoms on some metal. I remember seeing pictures of it.
Anyways, I think that I'm going to post my comments on the message board, because it's getting pretty large, and its easier to respond like that.
Peace,
Rob
At 7:59:21 PM on 4/27/2001, Darknodin said:
Mattman... if you think so... then you can just lie down and die... because you are destroying this planet in numerous small ways (don't take this personnaly)
And... you know... we don't even know if our bodies exist for real... I mean in dreams we can touch something and really feel it but it's an illusion and... mmm that's another story
At 7:56:39 PM on 4/27/2001, Mattman said:
Also, provide proof for this statement: "If an entity like God cannot exist than an entity like our mind can't exist too." Why not? Our mind has developed over a huge amount of time. Through the concept of evolution and natural selection, the fact that our minds are so well developed is not that hard to understand. Now give me proof for your argument.
At 7:56:15 PM on 4/27/2001, Darknodin said:
Faith is the greatest of Man's qualities... persons that have faith live a happier life... and Sinornis your arguments are interesting... as for... the earth is not round... but we were told so... it has all sorts of bumbs and the seas form a sort of growth on it side because of the moon...
Also... I want to know...Mattman... do you believe there are atoms? electrons? or in your terms... do you really KNOW so??? you don't, NO One as seen an electron though now it is common fact that they existed, however it isn't really proven. There IS electricity, and all other uses of electrons and protons but as I said no one ever saw one of these with his own eyes. Hell! even the best Electronic Microscope now can't give us an image of an atom. The way we represent atoms and their gravitating electrons is only a model, a theory. But you 'know' it exists? anyway God is somehow the same thing... nobody (or nearly no one) saw it with his own eyes... but has faith that it exists...
At 7:54:12 PM on 4/27/2001, Mattman said:
"If you don't believe in God... I think that you can't believe in yourself. I mean, we exist, not as only impulses from nerves and stuff but we THINK. If an entity like God cannot exist than an entity like our mind can't exist too. That means that when we die, we cease to be completely and if it's so, we are nothing but useless mass of cells that consume this planet."
It's a scary thought, isn't it? Most people's egos won't allow it. But think of life before you were born. There was nothing. The same is true of death. Why is that so hard to comprehend? That one day you will cease to exist? Because we are self aware, that concept is very scary.
At 7:49:12 PM on 4/27/2001, Mattman said:
Redwing - All good points.
At 7:45:38 PM on 4/27/2001, Mattman said:
'Faith' is the ultimate cheat. It's a word that describes what you cannot prove. Science doesn't take an easy way out such as 'faith'. Science is based on evidence. Now a days, since religion is constantly having to prove itself against a more rational world, 'faith' is the final finger that it hangs by.
At 7:40:35 PM on 4/27/2001, Sinorsis said:
Alright Redwing, we're gonna get philosophical here.
Let's get somethings straight first, you're don't understand what i believe apparently. Yes, i believe in evolution, and yes i believe dinosaurs existed. You see their ANCESTORS today. A bird, although related to dinosaurs, is NOT a true dinosaur, just like we are not monkeys. So no, you don't see dinosaurs everyday when you walk to class (unless you managed to bring them back to life somehow).
>We are the ones that need proof, not him/her/it. Not god/gods coming down, per say, but evidence that can be repeated and tested. But, I can see no evidence.
you don't need to see God to believe in him. Why is it bad to offer and ultimatum? Because it's a form of respect...look at what happens when we threaten other countries with bombs and the such.
now the philosophy:
>No. I know because of the evidence. I don't believe the sun exists, I know it does.
this is gonna sound kinda odd, and please don't take this the wrong way:
Do you really? Have you been there? You're relying on second hand proof. Even a picture can only tell you so much. How do you know the earth is somewhat spherical? you don't, you're told it is, and you believe it, have you been in space and seen it for yourself? Oh wait, you've seen pictures, but then again, you've also seen pictures of hoaxed UFOS, Bigfoots, Nessies, etc. Is that what you really believe, what people tell you to believe? Now i'm not saying that i don't think the sun is there and the earth isn't round, all i'm saying is think twice next time you "know" something... The only way to know for sure is to see it yourself and then decide.
You haven't seen God therefore he doesn't exist right? Well, you don't see wind when it makes your hair go all crazy, yet it exists.
I'm not challenging your argument, just think about and let it sink in.
At 6:32:46 PM on 4/27/2001, Darknodin said:
Ok... two things... I can't understand how someone can say Evolution doesn't exist. I mean... we see proofs of evolution everyday... for exemple... if you can... take a cat (if you live in a cold country) from the South. at first in winter it'll be sick and all but after two or three generations they will be perfectly adapted to their lifestyle (even their fur would be longer!)... I exclude the pure races of cats that are breeded in a special from that. Those that don't believe in God I'd say that there are also many signs of His presence... but these signs signs are more subtle. And those who say animals don't believe in God... how in the name of the great Darknodin can you say that???? I don't think anyone can know what an animal thinks.
If you don't believe in God... I think that you can't believe in yourself. I mean, we exist, not as only impulses from nerves and stuff but we THINK. If an entity like God cannot exist than an entity like our mind can't exist too. That means that when we die, we cease to be completely and if it's so, we are nothing but useless mass of cells that consume this planet.
At 6:31:45 PM on 4/27/2001, Rob_Redwing said:
>you don't NEED God to come down and show himself...by doing so, you're giving Him an ultimatum.<
Why is this bad? We are the ones that need proof, not him/her/it. Not god/gods coming down, per say, but evidence that can be repeated and tested. But, I can see no evidence.
Peace,
Rob
At 6:29:08 PM on 4/27/2001, Rob_Redwing said:
Mattman: I'm talking more intrinsic than that. The reason for theories and what not is truths and facts (a more philisophical look on science, I suppose).
Sinorsis:
>Just like you haven't seen a live dinosaur<
Every day on my way to class I do.
>you still believe they existed/exist (because of the evidence provided by fossils).<
No. I know because of the evidence. I don't believe the sun exists, I know it does. Belief in something is faith in an object/idea that can never be seen or observed. Fossils are not like that. They are direct evidence. The fossil animal was once alive. I may believe that <i>Tyrannosaurus</i> had dino-fuzz, but I know that evolution happens.
>God is the same way, although you haven't seen Him, you experience His presence everyday in the little things that you don't normally notice. Stop to think about it next time you wake up and you still have a sense of being.<
Not really. This isn't evidence, this is a belief that god/gods are here in our lives. But, there is no evidence, and without evidence, there is no proof. It is a belief.
Peace,
Rob
At 4:36:08 PM on 4/27/2001, Compyraptor said:
Why the hell are you lot talking about religon when we are supposed to be commenting about a feathered Dino ????
At 3:50:11 PM on 4/27/2001, Sinorsis said:
That's the whole idea of faith...you don't NEED God to come down and show himself...by doing so, you're giving Him an ultimatum. Just like you haven't seen a live dinosaur, you still believe they existed/exist (because of the evidence provided by fossils). God is the same way, although you haven't seen Him, you experience His presence everyday in the little things that you don't normally notice. Stop to think about it next time you wake up and you still have a sense of being.
At 1:54:07 PM on 4/27/2001, Mattman said:
Rob Redwing - Actually the idea of science is to develop a theory and then attempt to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And those that haven't been proven are called "Theories". Science is generally VERY hesitant to carve anything in stone as "fact". If God came down from heaven and proved his existence, I think I would have no trouble believing. The problem is, that just hasn't happened. There is no evidence, other than stories that humans have written.
At 1:36:49 PM on 4/27/2001, Sinorsis said:
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him."
-Voltaire
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-Galileo Galilei
At 11:39:30 AM on 4/27/2001, Majin2 said:
Now it is time for the majin's take on this whole thing. For one I think that religion is just a way for people to except the things of life. Even though I am a Pagan, and the teaching talk about many gods (not just one) I beleive that it all comes down to one thing. That there was some kind of Big Bang that caused all of this, then our ancesters evolved so much that we grew a mind of our own and we have a consious. This new find proves to the point that Dino's evolved into Birds. And I wish that in books like my science book for school wold be updated cause I think that dinosours where not Reptiles to begin with. The first people to start puting dino bones together saw some things that made them think that they where infact reptiles, horns and ect. But I feel that a number of Dino's where in fact the ancesters of Birds, more than likly the smaller ones cause I doubt that bigger dinos ever evolved into birds. But ones like the Velociraptor and others like it where infact the direct decendents of Birds. I don't mean to wright alot but when we get on a topic like the evolution of dinos to birds I feel what I say.....
At 10:49:56 AM on 4/27/2001, Monte-Cristo said:
Well Hans, actually there might exist an evolutionary explanation to religion. To achieve and retain mental stability, a human being must have a basis to his view of the world, ie. he must have some kind of an explanation to everything that surrounds him. Also, the thought of a greater power taking care of everything gives a psychological advance - it helps in surviving dire moments in life.
Animals (perhaps excluding the most intelligent of them, like apes, elephants etc.) don't believe in god(s) because they just aren't 'smart' enough.
Compy Bites - time to find out how science works and what can be considered evidence. There's plenty of that in favor of evolution.
At 9:40:57 AM on 4/27/2001, V-Raptor said:
Ha! I knew it! =) It's cool that we now have more proof to show those people that view dinosaurs as slow-moving reptiles that they're wrong! I've always firmly believed that dinosaurs, especially the theropods, were closely related to birds! =)
At 7:24:31 AM on 4/27/2001, Hans said:
Why believe in god????????
There is a simple answer.
We have been given this
instinct because mother nature does not want us to bee our own gods!
It controls us, making us less dangerous to nature.
It wants to stop us from breaking new limits.
The animals do not believe in god ,that is because they
got us to control them.
we should fight against, believing we are our own masters, because we are.
At 2:35:26 AM on 4/27/2001, Zoologist21 said:
Damn it, I hit /u, what happened?</u>
<i>"Conservaion is not a hobby, it is a way of life"</i>
<a href=http://www.angelfire.com?ego/zoology>Zoology</a>
At 2:33:29 AM on 4/27/2001, Zoologist21 said:
Utah, while I do not know much about paleontology I do know that down is a type of feather. _Def. of down: soft fluffy <i>feathers</i>, as the outer covering on young birds or an inner layer of <i>feathers</i>on adult birds. Taken from <u>Websters New World College Dictionary._ Down is a type of feather.
<i>"Conservation is not a hobby, it is a way of life'</i>
<a href=http://www.angelfire.com/ego/zoology>Zoology</a>
At 2:05:56 AM on 4/27/2001, Utahraptor said:
I still say fuzzy down is not feathers.
At 1:26:41 AM on 4/27/2001, amargasaur said:
OK, this has gone beyond a friendly debate. Too bad, too. It was fun.
At 12:38:22 AM on 4/27/2001, Sinorsis said:
compy, you wouldn't believe evolution even if you evolved from a human that could barely survive in the mesopotamian valley and used a mind to be able to type and go on the internet and bash science....oh wait...
need i say more?
At 12:31:56 AM on 4/27/2001, Post Grant said:
Or talk the talk. Does he know the differende of my perpendicular from my reticulum? ^_-
I just wish i was smart enough to be included in this debate. Back to the books to me. But in my short, uneducated opinion, i believe in short that maybe God and eveolution are kind of in the mix together. God creates things, things evolve to suit environment. Small dinos had feathers, Dinos evolve into birds. Am i on the right track? Correct me. Need knowledge like a sasqotch in a pudding factory.
At 11:39:25 PM on 4/26/2001, Darth Rancor said:
"You people really have no lives do you? Omg, you guys are so lame! Like, eew you guys creep me out . . . "
Ahh, personal attacks. One of the classic strategies of one who can't walk the walk.
The Good. The Bad. The One and Only Rancor.
<a href= http://www.angelfire.com/art/gondolend/>Gondolend</a>
<a href= http://www.angelfire.com/art/fds/>Feathered Dinosaur Society</a>
At 11:31:03 PM on 4/26/2001, Rob_Redwing said:
>What you really wont admit is that you really have no facts at all.<
Explain how all of the evidence we present is false then, instead of saying, "It can't be true."
>You are so blinded by science that you'll completely shut anything else out that could be true.<
Umm...entirely wrong. The idea of science is to accept facts and truths. If you have so little faith in the scientific process, then I'd suggest not flying, or watching TV, because, apparently, all the evidence we have to support how these things work is worthless, according to you.
>You guys wouldn't believe Creation if the God Almighty came down, slapped you in the face, and told you that there wasn't SUCH THING.<
Hmm...so if God came down and said that there was no Creation, I wouldn't believe in creation? Yes, this is true. However, I don't anyways, so your point is moot. And, if God came down and said, "Moron, evolution is a lie," then, as a man of science, <i>I would have to accept it</i>!!! Understand the scientific process and the methodologies and terminology behind it before you bash it.
Peace,
Rob
At 11:21:20 PM on 4/26/2001, Overaptor said:
Compy Bites, I think it is time for you to admit you are wrong and step off the stage. The evidence lies straight in front of you and YOU are the one who is blinded by science and straight out facts when they are right under your nose.
At 11:15:13 PM on 4/26/2001, Overaptor said:
"You guys wouldn't believe Creation if the God Almighty came down, slapped you in the face, and told you that there wasn't SUCH THING. That is all I have to say on the subject." Excuse me, could you put that in lamer terms Mr. All Powerful All Knowing?
At 11:05:48 PM on 4/26/2001, Compy Bites said:
::sigh:: I have come to the long last conclusion that I didn't quite make myself think...
You people really have no lives do you? Omg, you guys are so lame! Like, eew you guys creep me out with all your "facts" of evolution. What you really wont admit is that you really have no facts at all. You are so blinded by science that you'll completely shut anything else out that could be true. Like my last topic on "FEATHERD DINOSAURS" all those months back, I was acting out of rage, but this time I'm acting out of pity. You guys wouldn't believe Creation if the God Almighty came down, slapped you in the face, and told you that there wasn't SUCH THING. That is all I have to say on the subject.
At 10:53:58 PM on 4/26/2001, Overaptor said:
Okay, God created these creatures, whom adapted to the environment as it changed. Corny, but short n' sweet. I bet that covers just about everything, except for non-christians - just stick with evolution, but don't hurt your head thinking about how it all started.
-Boo ya'll,
David Nadeau
At 10:07:40 PM on 4/26/2001, Darknodin said:
about the Why part... mmm what I mean is that in the beginning it wasn't widespread and anything from a small underwater eruption to a meteorite could have destroyed it (I.E. Mars) and this is why I, personaly, believe that God played a major hand in this...
At 9:56:10 PM on 4/26/2001, Rob_Redwing said:
>it's just to show you that these are just names and that these fail to grasp the whole idea of an animal group<
That's the best point I've heard on here in a while.
>WHY did it start... and why did it continue...<
It started randomly, with a fairly simple mixture of chemicals, organic molocules and elements. It continued because nothing stopped it. Sure, little patches of life may have started and died out, but it probably reproduced rapidly (like modern single-celled organisms), so that it was very widespread, very quickly. It's easy to kill a small animal population...much harder to kill a large one.
Peace,
Rob
At 9:49:04 PM on 4/26/2001, Darknodin said:
mmm.. I wanna say that well... I think that what JP says makes sense... and I wanna point out that the bible wasn't written like a newspaper, recording facts and stuff like that. The Genesis could very well be a metaphor like this could just mean that God created things in an order or just that God created things period. It could just be that this was a way to tell the Jews what to do (work on 6 days with one day of rest). Ok... now another thing is... we know (or think) that life started as monocellular organisms and evolved... the real question is... WHY did it start... and why did it continue... A million things could have gone wrong, yet it didn't. Why?
about the bird/dino argument... don't forget that these (Bird or Dinosaur) are just names and that the line between one another is really fuzzy. I mean... look at a normal animal like a parakeet. if it evolves (takes thousanads, millions of years) we humans are witnesses of that... when will it stop being a parakeet... or.. we can think.. we keep evolving and WHEN will we stop being human? it's absurd to say that... it's just to show you that these are just names and that these fail to grasp the whole idea of an animal group.
At 9:10:09 PM on 4/26/2001, Rob_Redwing said:
>This discussion requires admittance to the fact of evolution<
No, only a willingness to accept the evidence and their conclusions (the earth is round, etc.).
At 8:25:45 PM on 4/26/2001, Sinorsis said:
I am Christian to begin with. I agree with the "day longer than human day" theory. To all you Christians out there remember to not rely on your own knowledge and seek God for wisdom instead.
For all you non-Christians and Christians alike: do not be afraid to question even the very foundation of your "existence". The worst that can happen is that you'll prove yourself wrong and gain new insight about yourself.
For those of you that keep insisting that it's one or the other, take a class on evolution and genetics!!! Although there is evidence of sudden bursts of evolution, most evolution is extremely slow and not as dramatic as it used to be.
And for those that don't believe in evolution, I highly recommend you read "The Allegory of the Cave" ....
peace.
At 8:25:27 PM on 4/26/2001, jp said:
I was doing a essay on the relationship between dinos and birds and this helped me finish my essay.
At 7:44:17 PM on 4/26/2001, amargasaur said:
The first part of my reply didn't show! My first sentence is a reply to the statement that "This discussion requires admittance to the fact of evolution"
At 7:42:19 PM on 4/26/2001, amargasaur said:
<This discussion requires admittance to the fact of evolution.> Does that mean I have to agree with you to be included in this discussion? Discoveries of bird-like dinosaurs don't frighten me and they don't prove evolution. They only prove that this animal died-everything else is speculation. Birds and some small dinosaurs have similarities, but saying that "birds evolved from dinosaurs" is speculation. <a day to the Lord is as 1000 years> In context, the Bible is talking about God being outside the concept of time. In Genesis, "day" is translated from the Hebrew "yom" which has always refered to a 24 hour period.
(sits back and waits for the bombardment of replies)
At 6:48:50 PM on 4/26/2001, Tango said:
Beat me to it Mallon but yes, so far only small coelurosaurs are feathered, and I'd doubt much, if anything, outside of this group is feathered.
At 6:47:22 PM on 4/26/2001, Mallon said:
Nope. You're right, Monte-Cristo. It is only believed that small coelurosaurian dinosaurs had feathers (maybe even some earlier theropods too!).
At 6:45:21 PM on 4/26/2001, Tango said:
pj: I believe there's a verse in the Bible that says "A day in the Lord is a thousand years." So 1) We don't have to take 6 days lieterally, and 2) We don't have to take this verse literally either. Saying a "thousand years" could be figurative, simply meaning many upon many years.
P.s. I'm Christian as well, if ya couldn't tell. :) Theistic evolutionist is more like it though.
At 6:43:20 PM on 4/26/2001, Monte-Cristo said:
Varan101 - the answer to that is almost certainly "no". Ornitschians were probably all featherless. It might be that only Coelurosaurs were feathery. Correct me if I'm wrong, Marcos, Mallon & others.
At 6:40:00 PM on 4/26/2001, Varan101 said:
Well obviously not all dinosaurs had feathers..or did they? :)
At 6:36:02 PM on 4/26/2001, Tyrannosaurus said:
I had a feeling some small dinos had feathers. I'll be really amazed if they find a Rex-sized animal with feathers.
"Somewhere on this island, there exists the greatest predator that ever lived."-Roland Tembo
At 6:20:43 PM on 4/26/2001, Monte-Cristo said:
Mattman & pj - Mattman represents the extreme non-theist (atheist, if you like it) approach to the subject. pj on his/her part represents the rational christian approach. I'm atheist myself, but I don't think evolution rules out belief. IMHO pj's way of thinking does work, if you're christian.
amargasaur:
"Too much has to change instantaniously for that to happen.What we have here is either a bird OR a dinosaur."
-In evolution, nothing needs to change isntantly. Evolution is mostly a slow transformational process. This new critter doesn't need to be either a bird OR dinosaur. Our way to look at this is just a way of thinking. If we think "birds" and "dinosaurs", we can't see how similar they actually are. All the way to this day we have thought that birds are as far from dinosaurs as reptiles are from amphibians. Now we can see that birds might actually be dinosaurs - they are so similar in so many ways. To say that birds are dinosaurs is like saying that humans are primates (which we are). Therefore the humans and neanderthals analogy didn't work.
At 5:34:57 PM on 4/26/2001, Mattman said:
So, PJ, each day was a billion years? And that makes sense to you? I'm sorry, but the Bible simply can't hold up to the evidence. 'Faith' is merely a word for something that can't be proven. I think it's amusing that people find evidence hard to believe, but find it easy to believe in the concept of an all-knowing entity that has always existed (and cannot be explained).
At 5:23:03 PM on 4/26/2001, Overaptor said:
To all aya out there who say feathered dinos never existed! WHO'S YO DADDY NOW?
At 5:18:50 PM on 4/26/2001, pj said:
Hey im also a christian. I even asked my Priest at the church a question, I am Catholic. I asked him about creation and why there were dinosaurs and other ancient creatures befor humans. He put it like this. God created the world in 6 days and rested on the seventh. Imagine that each day was more like a billiom years. He didn't say this but i got this from my english teacher. How long is time really. With our dating systems and so on. How do we really know how long time was.It's really a mystery. And about evolution, I believe that God was behind it all. He put us here and continued to make better and more different organisms. Eventually he created us. From a primate if you'd like to say. You see, both, evolution and religion can mix well. After all, the bible did predict things that science couldn't explain untill advancement in technology.
At 5:11:06 PM on 4/26/2001, pj said:
Hey, there is some evidence that birds did come from ancient reptiles. They may have had the same ancestors as the dinosaurs. That would also explain why they were so closely related. Ever heard of Protovis? It's actually a one speciamen type of thing where the guy who has it won't let anyone see it. There is no proof that birds came from dinos. Or no proof for anything for that matter. Archeopteryx is actually a bird rather than a dino. Even though it has more reptile features. Also, birds are better than reptiles of today. Smarter, warm blooded, and more abundant if you ask me(because i don't hold proof of that statement just a guess).
At 5:09:46 PM on 4/26/2001, Mallon said:
Firstly, I wouldn't call it "Christian ignorance". I myself am a Christian, yet I believe that this dinosaur was very closely related to birds. You can't deny that. Belief is different among eah individual.
Secondly, if you believe in "evolutionary facts", you'd subscribe to the idea that birds are dinosaurs. Unless you're old-fashioned and refuse to evolve yourself. :)
At 5:06:49 PM on 4/26/2001, Tango said:
It's true on how little we do know. Truly, we'll never know everything about the past. I have to agree about the birds not being dinosaurs debate though. Birds are NOT dinosaurs, they are descendants of dinosaurs. It would kinda be like calling us Neandertals or Australopithecus, or what have you.
At 4:58:00 PM on 4/26/2001, Sinorsis said:
Christian ignorance is only part of it...BUT (we're gonna get philosophical now)...do we REALLY know anything??? Everything known was at one point not understood or believed and somethings not believed now were at one point believed and "understood"...regarded as fact even. enjoy thinking
At 4:55:25 PM on 4/26/2001, BD said:
Wow, that True.Origin site is something. I haven't seen Christian ignorance rant like that since....The Spanish Inquisition.
At 4:53:12 PM on 4/26/2001, Sinorsis said:
birds are descendents of dinosaurs....but they are not dinosaurs...there's a pretty big difference...get your genetics/evolutionary facts straight.
At 4:27:16 PM on 4/26/2001, Rob_Redwing said:
Too late, Rancor.
At 4:15:04 PM on 4/26/2001, Darth Rancor said:
Must . . . not . . . point out . . . fact that JP is a few years behind . . . Must . . . not . . . make . . . snide . . . remark . . .
The Good. The Bad. The One and Only Rancor.
<a href= http://www.angelfire.com/art/gondolend/>Gondolend</a>
<a href= http://www.angelfire.com/art/fds/>Feathered Dinosaur Society</a>
At 4:08:55 PM on 4/26/2001, KillerRaptor said:
Boo-Yah.
At 3:29:14 PM on 4/26/2001, Tango said:
True Mallon, Bambiraptor was not found with feathers, that's why I said "I believe" as in I wasn't sure. Yet it is very-bird like many different characteristics, and most likely WAS feathered.
At 3:25:33 PM on 4/26/2001, jp3chaos said:
hey everone there are more JP3 toys on ebay
At 3:06:05 PM on 4/26/2001, Iguanodon said:
that made no sence
At 3:01:12 PM on 4/26/2001, Mattman said:
And that "True Origin" website is trying to debunk evolution altogether, so it is immediately ruled out as a reliable source. This discussion requires admittance to the fact of evolution. Amargasaur, discoveries such as bird-like dinosaurs must be a rather frightening concept for you, since it proves evolution.
At 3:00:10 PM on 4/26/2001, Iguanodon said:
I knew that way before this was posted HELLO its on a museam site
At 2:57:06 PM on 4/26/2001, Mattman said:
Archaeopteryx is in fact a dinosaur, and most closely resembles a coelurosaur. And yes, birds and dinosaurs are not necessarily seperate things. We simply make a distinction because we are told dinosaurs are extinct. The fact is that they are not, they simply evolved into a smaller form to survive the catastrophic event that threatened their species.
At 2:43:45 PM on 4/26/2001, amargasaur said:
sorry, i'm not jumping on the bandwagon. A bird is not a dinosaur. Too much has to change instantaniously for that to happen.What we have here is either a bird OR a dinosaur. Here's an interesting article if you care to see another point of view:
http://trueorigin.org/birdevo.htm
At 2:35:15 PM on 4/26/2001, Mallon said:
_Bambiraptor_ was >not< found with feathers. And _Archaeopteryx_ was a bird, therefore also making it a dinosaur. All birds are dinosaur decendants.
At 2:25:49 PM on 4/26/2001, Ultraraptor said:
Archeopterix isn't a dinosaur
At 1:34:05 PM on 4/26/2001, Tango said:
Bambiraptor was found in the Two Medicine Formation of Montana in 1993. The specimen found was less than three feet long and has the largest brain cavity (for its size) of any known dinosaur.
At 1:24:40 PM on 4/26/2001, Mallon said:
Jurassic Park ahead of its time? Ha! Give me a break. There have been a number of feathered dinosaur finds now, known for a number of years. I say, it's about fricken time JP got it right.
And yes, there have been feathered dromaeosaurs known before this one. Can you say _Sinornithosaurus_?
At 1:13:56 PM on 4/26/2001, jappar2001 said:
It's a case of life immitating art.
At 1:07:08 PM on 4/26/2001, Monte-Cristo said:
"Obviously, the Jurassic Park series seems to be ahead of its time in the science department once again, as at least some of the raptors in JP3 will sport feathered head crests."
-The media morons strike again. Feathered dinosaurs have been known for years by now, for over 100 years actually if you count in Archaeopteryx. Where did the JP3 crew come up with the feathers idea then? Freakin' morons.
At 1:02:59 PM on 4/26/2001, Compyraptor said:
Tango I remember Microraptor being found but when was Bambiraptor found ?????
At 1:02:11 PM on 4/26/2001, Katsura said:
this fossil is defintly not _Caudipterx Zoui_
.Nor does it looks like _Sinosauropterx Prima_ - two of the previously described feathered theropods.
Notice the super elongated fingure bones, this baby is defintly on the right track to flying. Exciting news.
Is this thing named yet?
At 12:45:32 PM on 4/26/2001, Tango said:
Well actually Microraptor was found awhile back and it was feathered, and I believe Bambiraptor was as well, both being dromaeosaurs. But Compy Bites, you can't deny fact. This is not a theory, its fact.
At 12:20:56 PM on 4/26/2001, Rob_Redwing said:
Boo yah, that's all I gotta say. If you can't accept evidence you can feel, see and touch, get outta the kitchen.
At 11:51:43 AM on 4/26/2001, Hans said:
But not a feathered dromaeosaur.
At 11:45:24 AM on 4/26/2001, Bernie Fishnote said:
This is old news. Feathered Dinosaurs have been known of for ages!
At 11:14:55 AM on 4/26/2001, Evilgrinch said:
Joe Johnston just has a sixth sense about these things.
At 10:55:33 AM on 4/26/2001, eggy said:
What do you call that REAL skeleton, then?
At 10:18:09 AM on 4/26/2001, Compy Bites said:
Yeah, well I still stand firm on the fact that there ARE NO FEATHERD DINOSAURS.
At 9:48:15 AM on 4/26/2001, jp3chaos said:
cool
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