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The Carnotaurus example is given in response to the 'a predator needs arms' argument. If a predator needs arms, then Carnotaurus must have been a scavenger and its jaws and teeth are in no way capable of processing bone.
Deinonychus lived millions of years before Rex.
The Dromaeosaurs of the Late Cretaceous were even smaller.
There is no way that they brought down multi-ton Hadrosaurs and Ceratopians.
At 4:02:10 PM on 9/18/2001, paleeoguy said:
I thank everyone for the heated debate. some examples have been very...interesting. I'd just like to say that in the allotted ten minutes I had to type, I feel that I did a fairly good job with my presentation. When talking about other animals with similar body structure, you mustn't forget to take into account the environment that the animal lives in, and the animals around it. T-rex's late cretacious environment spurred small carnivores like deinonychus and its kin. Animals like that for sure killed dinosaurs. When speaking of carnotaurus, it lived in a completely different environment. There were large sauropods ambling about and other predators that could have taken them down. Why would a carnotaur need to crunch bone with a sauropod??
At 9:13:01 PM on 9/14/2001, leatherface said:
man i m gettin sick and tired of all your hating on Horner for his believes. That is just a stupid reason. WHat now all of us r going to hate people who have a different religion than us? People keep in mind that no one knows nothing abut dinosaurus other than God him self we are finding new evidence everyday about these animals and of course many of the old thearies going to be diacred remeber at first everyone thought dinosaurus were reptiles and now everybody accepts them as being warm bloded bird related animlas. I think that Horner is right when u look at the evidence his jaws were powerful enought to break bone do any hunters have powerful jaws that can crush to bone? No, not even a great white shark. We are hunters do r teeth crushg bone no we eat and bite flesh and we hate it when we take a bite of it. If we were to eat bone and crush it we would have some powerful jaws. Now one of u said that there is evidence of a triceratops bone healing before dieng hello if a rex killed him he would have ate him in the spot bones do not heal in a minute or two, and the evidence of tryanosarus teeth marks in do ot prove that they hunted it just proves taht they ate meat so if some dumb muthafucker says taht a rex was a herbivore we can prove him wrong. aslo why would a hunter wanna walk don't hunters run. I dont think dinosaurus went up to him and said yeah eat me not my family come one people we should be open minded not just hate on peole who have a different belief than us.
At 12:46:53 AM on 9/14/2001, JP1 said:
yes and theories Can't Be proven. :)
At 10:41:49 PM on 9/11/2001, Vinsfeld said:
Here's my theory on wheter T-Rexes were predators or scavengers.....
NEITHER
They were really advanced and had laser vision, and sub machine guns and would hunt for fun making them Poachers. The question of what they ate.......
Dominoes Pizza and T.V. dinners.
The T-Rex had small forelimbs because........
God punished them for picking their nose all the time.
The speed of the T-Rex was pretty slow until......
Air Nikes were invented. Then Rexes shot hoops for fun.
The T-Rexes had the largest olfactory tube because....
after generations of not being able to pick their nose (life found a way) and they developed bigger noses so they could smell better.
Before posting about my beliefs, think to yourself, y not? y is Horner more correct than I? They're both assumptions and both are based on fact. The main point im trying to make is don't get mad at what someone believes in, after all, it's just an opinion. Of course my opinion sounds stupid but think, 65 million yer from now when some advanced race digs up our fossils, theyre not gonna dig up ur computers, documents or anything else because it will all decompose. They may thing we were all just a friendly hherbivore or something. Its scary to think about this.
At 11:51:49 PM on 9/10/2001, ih8wasps said:
i have met the man(horner), indeed i visited his camp last year.
after meeting him i must say i am completely un-impressed, and quite frankly his psuedo-science angers me. he is a joke to his peers.
as he opens his mouth you must prepare for the endless flow of biased non-facts.
i belong to a different paleotology team, and we have found SOLID,UNQUESTIONABLE proof that T-rex was indeed a PREDATOR.
this proof is in the form of HEALED bite-marks on more than one specimen of triceratops that could only be inflicted by a T-rex, and as the wounds show extensive bone remodeling(healing) the animal was ALIVE when bitten, NOT CARRION as horner would lead the public to believe. the triceatops struggeled and somehow managed to escape, but in its healed would is the proof that puts down horner's "theory".
At 1:13:14 AM on 9/10/2001, rm0918 said:
Before you take the Horner line, get your facts straight.
T-rex may very well have been a scavenger, but your 'facts' are flawed. Lets start with the tiny arm argument: many other therapods had tiny arms (some smaller and more useless than T-rex's) and they were smaller and more gracile than Rex. Did they all scavenge ? Carnotaurus had a weak lower jaw and meat cutting teeth and smaller arms than Rex, did it crush bones, was it incapable of killing prey ? What about Albertosaurus, Gorgosaurus, Tarbosaurus and the other smaller Tyrannosaurids, were they all scavangers ? If so, then what creatures were left to kill the prey all these scavengers were eating ? Taking an animal and pretending that it is unique without comparing to other creatures with a similiar anatomy is absurd.
Next the Turkey Vulture : the only thing anatomically that Rex has in common with a Turkey Vulture is its olfactory lobe. No other vulture uses its sense of smell (as far as we know, they can't smell at all) to locate carrion. It must not be a very good strategy. Also, I must assume all canines are primarily scavengers as they are primarily scent hunters.
Next up, Rex being too tall, again this must have been a problem for all the other large therapods. If your mouth is twelve feet off the ground and you were eating snakes or even crocodiles that might be cumbersome, but if your prey is 8, 10, 12 or 14 feet high it doesn't present much of a problem.
Rex being too slow: first, human femurs are longer than human tibias. They are not the same or almost the same length. Also, human foot bones are not elongated to increase the stride like Rex and all other running animals. Rex is better designed to run than we are. If Rex's weight was a limiting factor in its supposed lack of speed, what in its enviroment could it not catch and kill ? The smaller Hadrosaurs may have been slightly faster but they would have been easy kills, i.e. Rex hunts them from ambush, as lions and tigers do today with their speedier prey. Triceratops was just as large as Rex and supposedly just as slow. If Rex waddles and Tops lumbers, Rex still catches it and if Rex can catch it, Rex can kill it.
Last thing, back to the Turkey Vulture being ugly and stinky and nobody wants to mess with it. The Turkey Vulture feeds last at a carcass, even the smaller Black Vulture feeds before it. Do you know which bird has pre-eminence at a carcass in North America ? The Golden Eagle, the premiere killer of the group. Its status as a KILLER gets it first rights at a carcass even over the much larger California Condor.
In Africa, the Maribou Stork is probably the world's ugliest bird. It is big and ugly and has a huge waddle and guess what its next to last at a carcass. So by Horner's logic (a Rex scavenges because it and a Turkey Vulture have huge olfactory lobes) then the Rex must have waited until last at a carcass (a Turkey Vulture does), because the smaller and scrappier predators intimidated it.
T-rex may have been a scavenger but your (and Horner's) arguments are less than convincing, to say the least.
At 11:30:17 PM on 9/9/2001, Vinsfeld said:
whoever paleoguy was talking to just got chewed up and spit out. Hope it was spinoraptorcrap :P
At 10:05:57 PM on 9/9/2001, conor said:
you were in valley of the t-rex?
At 7:39:48 PM on 9/9/2001, paleeoguy said:
Hi. I'd just like to add to your comments on the Valley of the T-rex. Since I am in this doc. I happen to know a lot about the theories presented and why the trex looks the way it does.
Firstly, The notion that trex was a scavenger comes from pure unbiased scientific examination. Horner has taken the facts and presented them in a theory that demonstrates a behavior that is much more plausable than the Trex's of Jurassic park.
When you look at the skeleton of trex, the arms are tiny. They have absolutely no grip or length to them at all. They are very strong, but very stout. The Legs are long, but they are built for walking. The femur and the shin bones have to be at a certain proportion for the animal to be able to run fast. The shin bones must be longer in order for an animal to run fast. Human leg bones are about the same length, so we're slow. But ostriches and other running animals have short femurs compared to their tibs and fibs. Trex has a LONGER femur and a SHORTER shin. It was built for walking. T-rex's olfactory lobe was proportioned like a Turkey vultures(a scavenger), thus giving information about t-rex's sense of smell. In other words, trex could smell well, walk a long ways and had useless arms. Allosaurids and dromeaosaurids
had long, grappling arms. They were good hunters. Their teeth were designed for cutting meat. Compared to trex, they had delicate skulls and jaws.
So, redspitter, you say the strongest jaws could not have belonged to a scavenger. Well, think about this... Trex can smell dead flesh from miles around. He follows the scent by walking to it. He has no ability to hunt because he doesn't have key things. He cant run, grab, or see well. You say "but hes so big. He should just be able to run out there and grab a dinosaur in his jaws, like a cheetah" Well, what if you tried to latch onto a cow or pig from twelve feet in the air? I'm guessing you wouldn't be too successful. CHeetas are mammals, and they trip thier prey with a FOREPAW and then bite the neck from a height of about 2 feet. They also don't weigh 8 tons. Trex had useless forepaws, so he couldnt do that.
Trex is resourceful. It walks to the kill, uses its large size and big voice to scare off all other animals around, then leasurley munches on the muscle BONES and TENDONS that are left. That is why trex needed strong jaws. THey were good bone crunching jaws. He had good bone crunching teeth in those jaws, too.
Reddog2K43,...
The t-rex is modeled kind of after a turkey vulture. Its an ugly, stinky, vile and putrid animal that no one wants to mess with.
It has a huge wattle in order to make it uglier to animals around it. Would you want to bother something that smelled like vomit?
Oh, btw, I don't think that Bakker's notion of T-rex's front teeth being used for preening has really been widely accepted, so, what can ya say?
At 1:01:37 AM on 9/8/2001, KillerRaptor said:
Uhhh Vinsfeld,this is <i>NOT</i> about politics.Okay?????
<u>GOT THAT</u>???
At 11:46:46 PM on 9/7/2001, Reddog2K43 said:
ooooooooooooooooooooooook. And what does that have to do with Horner and the T-rex?
At 11:20:44 PM on 9/7/2001, Vinsfeld said:
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At 8:56:20 PM on 9/7/2001, Red Spitter said:
Hmm, about the new pic of the T-Rex, it's ok, the color is great, but the neck looks strange.
At 8:36:29 PM on 9/7/2001, Red Spitter said:
Horner thinks he knows a lot, bah, Bob Bakker is the real guy, he is the vanguardist, all his theories from about 5 years ago are now accepted. Horner also sucks because he says that the T-Rex was a scavenger!
The strongest jaws couldn't have possibly been from a scavenger.
At 1:36:07 PM on 9/7/2001, Reddog2K43 said:
Yes I do believe that Horner says that T.rex is a scavenger, but I know he's a hunter too. Even though its his new find, he still don't know the complete theory of T.rex. BTW what do ya'll think of the new T-rex pic at Discovery.com, ugly lookin isn't it.
At 7:08:32 AM on 9/7/2001, KillerRaptor said:
Jack Horner? BS!
At 4:56:21 PM on 9/6/2001, goldrex19 said:
yeah he roaly sux
At 4:12:39 PM on 9/6/2001, DarthMaulSithLord said:
He thinks he knows everything
At 12:14:43 PM on 9/6/2001, Jp3me said:
1st! and I met Horner in Bozeman Montana, he rules!
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